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The real patient zero? Three Wuhan lab scientists genetically altering Covid were the FIRST to contract the virus, claims report

Yep…remember when Glen Greenwald was a hero of the left? Now it’s Taibbi’s turn.
There was a time when both of those guys were consistently right on important issues. Each has gotten a bit squirrely in the past couple of years, but I still like them. I just don't give them an automatic pass any more because they have have un-earned that level of credibility.

Sadly, I can say the same for a number of journalists on the left since Trump won. Some have shifted from honest, left-leaning journalists - my kind of journalists - to shills for the current Democratic Party talking points. Not the end of the world because D talking points are still usually better and more honest than R talking points - but real journalists shouldn't be shills for any partisan talking points.

Other formerly good journalists are giving too much credence to conspiracy-sounding explanations that aren't as plausible as they make them seem. And it's not so much that they have a different opinion from mine as that they encourage the idiots when, in the past, they were straightening out the idiots.

I toss guys like Greenwald and Tiabbi in the barrel with RFKjr - smart, persuasive folks who for reasons I can't fathom, have gotten the wrong end of the stick on a few things lately and yet who are still right on other things.

I liked it better when it was clear who the bad guys were and also clear who the good guys are. I understand why MSNBS and CNN decided to adopt the tactics of FOX. Money. Shameful, but understandable. I don't know where or why folks like Greenwald and Tiabbi took a wrong turn. I hope they bounce back.
 
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If the researchers were ground zero, wouldn't you have expect the hospital they got care from to have an explosion in cases and became the ground zero and not the wuhan wet market?

Now that's just crazy talk!!!!
 
LOLWUT?

There's load of evidence it did. In particular, the similarities between related animal reservoir viruses AND actual viral DNA recovered from the wet markets.
Derp GIF by 43 Clicks North
 
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There's even more evidence the reservoir is 3 scientists from the Wuhan lab. No animal has been found having the virus DNA that matches the original SARS-COV2 genome. Similar isn't the same. That's why humanized mice were used to increase the ability to infect.
Show your work.
 
That can't be true, the left told us it was a batdog or platypuscat or monkeygerbel, but definitely not a lab leak.
 
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That can't be true, the left told us it was a batdog or platypuscat or monkeygerbel, but definitely not a lab leak.
where are the cases from the hospital where these 3 scientists were treated at, it should have been the ideal environment for Covid to spread, no one wearing masks enclosed area, individuals with compromised system
 
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If that were the case this map would look very different.
Initial cases would be centered around where the scientist lives and works, not the market. But looky here.

_126057136_mediaitem126057135.jpg
Two issues:

1) The problem with this map is China will not release the data behind the “dots”. They still refuse to cooperate with the rest of the world on this data and any other data from Wuhan.

Even if we assume these are real data points …

2) The lab is just a short distance away. Did one of the three lab workers visit the market? Did they spread the virus to another family member or someone else in Wuhan who went to the market?

We may never know for sure because China refuses to cooperate.
 
No, way too far fetched. There's simply no plausible way scientists working on novel coronaviruses in a lab could have caught the very viruses they were manipulating, then spread it. You're a racist conspiracy theorist and you should be censored immediately.
Must be. LOL. Actually I really like the Chinese people. Been there 9 times on business (Beijing, Tianjin, Harbin, Shanghai, Ningbo) so I understand the culture a bit. They do not like to admit mistakes and would rather hide those facts than find the root cause and correct it. Especially true for their government. Sounds familiar. :cool:
 
Two issues:

1) The problem with this map is China will not release the data behind the “dots”. They still refuse to cooperate with the rest of the world on this data and any other data from Wuhan.

Even if we assume these are real data points …

2) The lab is just a short distance away. Did one of the three lab workers visit the market? Did they spread the virus to another family member or someone else in Wuhan who went to the market?

We may never know for sure because China refuses to cooperate.

The lab is 'just a short distance away' - yeah, so short a distance that it's not visible on this map.

How about you read the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
 
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Yeah, people in Wuhan never travel around the city. Weak sauce Belem.
Dude.
If people 'travel around the city' it would show on the map.
If it came from the lab the heat map would show clusters around the lab and the lab researchers homes.
It doesn't.
You refuse to see it because it disagrees with your preconceived notions.
 
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Two issues:

1) The problem with this map is China will not release the data behind the “dots”. They still refuse to cooperate with the rest of the world on this data and any other data from Wuhan.

Even if we assume these are real data points …

2) The lab is just a short distance away. Did one of the three lab workers visit the market? Did they spread the virus to another family member or someone else in Wuhan who went to the market?

We may never know for sure because China refuses to cooperate.
The lab is 17 miles in a straight line and on the opposite side of the river from the market. And it would have taken two workers infected with different strains of the same virus, both of whom visited the same market within days of each other.

Oh…and neither of them passed their strains of the virus at any other venue. No other markets, not in their neighborhoods, not in their homes…unless both of these workers improbably lived beside the market.

Now it’s fine to say the Chinese won’t cooperate so nothing can be trusted. But that is how one simply dismisses any and all evidence that conflicts with a narrative.

There is literally zero evidence for a lab leak. That’s simply the truth. All there is for that story is the lab worked on coronaviruses and they don’t cooperate. That’s it. No physical evidence points to the lab beyond that kind of empty speculation. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy if it was demonstrated to be a lab leak - that would be far less ominous. But I’ve asked repeatedly for that kind of evidence and have seen nothing.
 
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The lab is 17 miles in a straight line and on the opposite side of the river from the market. And it would have taken two workers infected with different strains of the same virus, both of whom visited the same market within days of each other.
Or it could have been anyone those three original carriers came in contact for days/weeks who then visited the market. We don’t know the data of either the lab or the wet market because China refuses to cooperate.
 
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Or it could have been anyone those three original carriers came in contact for days/weeks who then visited the market. We don’t know the data of either the lab or the wet market because China refuses to cooperate.
They’ve looked at all blood donations for months prior to the outbreak. There is no coronavirus in any of them. There is no coronavirus in blood samples taken from people suffering flu-like symptoms at Wuhan hospitals going back months prior to the outbreak.

Your claim is that these three workers infected people with two different strains of the virus and those people infected others at the market but NONE OF THEM infected anyone in any other part of the city prior to the outbreak.

That’s the only story that fits the evidence but you get around that by saying we have no data. Fine. That means you have NO IDEA where the virus came from. Period. You can’t argue for any origin because your only evidence is a lack of faith in the evidence.
 
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I've cued this to the takaway

This is not evidence that covid came from natural origin.

They say a lab leak is "highly unlikely" but go on to say that it cant be ruled out. They are basing their opinion off the idea that sars and mers were from a natural origin. At one point, the woman said, "Since Sars was found in civets and racoon dogs, then that would be the default assumption(for covid)". This assumption is not science.

They go on to say that some animal samples had covid on them from the wet market, but these were found weeks after the outbreak. They specifically state that this only links covid to being present at the Wuhan Wet Market, it is not evidence that the animals Caused covid.

They say that if a sample of covid was found in the lab or in someones freezer then this would be the smoking gun needed to prove the lab leak. But it just so happens, China shut down the lab on Jan 1st 2020 for a massive cleaning and air duct cleaning (coincidence?).

The one guy said he talked with George Gao (former head of Chinese CDC) who said that they ran tests on the animals in the market but they couldn't find any positives.

Long story short, these virologists don't know any more than I do about the actual origins of covid. They have made educated guesses, but they also admit to not having all the data (that the FBI or other agencies may or may not have).
 
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The lab is 17 miles in a straight line and on the opposite side of the river from the market. And it would have taken two workers infected with different strains of the same virus, both of whom visited the same market within days of each other.

Oh…and neither of them passed their strains of the virus at any other venue. No other markets, not in their neighborhoods, not in their homes…unless both of these workers improbably lived beside the market.

Now it’s fine to say the Chinese won’t cooperate so nothing can be trusted. But that is how one simply dismisses any and all evidence that conflicts with a narrative.

There is literally zero evidence for a lab leak. That’s simply the truth. All there is for that story is the lab worked on coronaviruses and they don’t cooperate. That’s it. No physical evidence points to the lab beyond that kind of empty speculation. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy if it was demonstrated to be a lab leak - that would be far less ominous. But I’ve asked repeatedly for that kind of evidence and have seen nothing.
So you think it is more likely that 1 bat with 2 different strains of covid, or 2 bats both with a different strain both found their way into the same wet market at the same time with novel viruses that could be transmitted to people? And these bats just so happened to end up in a wet market in a city that was located 17 miles from one of the most well known labs for studying coronaviruses? Do you see how crazy a natural origin sounds as well?

Lets say they did find 2 bats in the wild that were brought back to the wet market, why didn't the people who found them contract the virus?

The fact is, the natural origin AND the lab leak are both HIGHLY Unlikely scenerios. But Covid happened, there is no debating that.

Lets pretend China knew that it came from the Wuhan lab, do you think they would make sure none of the scientists went public with that information? Do you think they might shut down the lab and clean it really well to make sure no samples could be found? Do you think they might prevent other countries from performing their own independent investigation of the lab?

It also just so happens that the coronavirus that most closely resembles covid (96% similar to Covid 19 (RaTG13)) was found in a mine by the bat woman who works in the Wuhan lab. https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0322/v2
 
Two issues:

1) The problem with this map is China will not release the data behind the “dots”. They still refuse to cooperate with the rest of the world on this data and any other data from Wuhan.

Even if we assume these are real data points …

2) The lab is just a short distance away. Did one of the three lab workers visit the market? Did they spread the virus to another family member or someone else in Wuhan who went to the market?

We may never know for sure because China refuses to cooperate.
It should be easy to track did any of their family members or or doctors or nurses or anyone else have Covid. They had flu like symptoms a full month before the Wet Market area began to have cases. The lab is further away and over a river.
 
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So you think it is more likely that 1 bat with 2 different strains of covid, or 2 bats both with a different strain both found their way into the same wet market at the same time with novel viruses that could be transmitted to people? And these bats just so happened to end up in a wet market in a city that was located 17 miles from one of the most well known labs for studying coronaviruses? Do you see how crazy a natural origin sounds as well?

Lets say they did find 2 bats in the wild that were brought back to the wet market, why didn't the people who found them contract the virus?

The fact is, the natural origin AND the lab leak are both HIGHLY Unlikely scenerios. But Covid happened, there is no debating that.

Lets pretend China knew that it came from the Wuhan lab, do you think they would make sure none of the scientists went public with that information? Do you think they might shut down the lab and clean it really well to make sure no samples could be found? Do you think they might prevent other countries from performing their own independent investigation of the lab?

It also just so happens that the coronavirus that most closely resembles covid (96% similar to Covid 19 (RaTG13)) was found in a mine by the bat woman who works in the Wuhan lab. https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0322/v2
Then the clinic should have been Covid zero not the wet market. Family members or anyone related or in contact with the workers. If you want a smoking gun that’s a smoking gun.
 
Then the clinic should have been Covid zero not the wet market. Family members or anyone related or in contact with the workers. If you want a smoking gun that’s a smoking gun.

And yet, no one can bring forth any evidence in support of this "hypothesis".

Meanwhile, an Australian researcher, who claims she knew "the three first infected" claims she was at meetings with them during that timeframe, and none of them were ill.
 
You are exactly who you are complaining about. There isn't sufficient evidence for anyone to come to a definitive conclusion that the origin is from a wet market or a lab. It shows your bias as well.
Yet it's always opinions like mine (based on the evidence and common sense) that seems to trigger you. And don't forget anyone who dared hypothesize the lab leak was a possibility was shouted down, called racist, anti science, a conspiracy theorist and they were censored.
 
And yet, no one can bring forth any evidence in support of this "hypothesis".

Meanwhile, an Australian researcher, who claims she knew "the three first infected" claims she was at meetings with them during that timeframe, and none of them were ill.
The Ratg13 virus (most similar to covid) was found deep in a mine thousands of miles away from wuhan. How do you explain how the virus got in the wuhan wet market? Who captured the animals? who killed the animals? who cared for the animals? who cleaned the cages after they were killed? Where is the chain of infections from where these animals were first found to getting to the wet market? Or did they magically fall from the earth into the wet market?

On the contrary, there is a chain of documented events how the samples got from the lab (by a documented researcher) who then studied the samples and was researching if these coronaviruses could jump to a human host.

You can't claim the lab hypothesis is conspiracy and crazy but rationalize the natural origin theory.

It is also possible that the virus is a naturally evolving virus (evolved in the lab without human input) and was accidentally released through a lab leak.

Read this article if you have 5 minutes, its very interesting.
 
Yet it's always opinions like mine (based on the evidence and common sense) that seems to trigger you. And don't forget anyone who dared hypothesize the lab leak was a possibility was shouted down, called racist, anti science, a conspiracy theorist and they were censored.
Quit it. There is no solid evidence for either theory. You just believe that your opinion is correct. You are exactly the person you get annoyed with. You need to take a long look in the mirror.
 
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The lab is 17 miles in a straight line and on the opposite side of the river from the market. And it would have taken two workers infected with different strains of the same virus, both of whom visited the same market within days of each other.

Oh…and neither of them passed their strains of the virus at any other venue. No other markets, not in their neighborhoods, not in their homes…unless both of these workers improbably lived beside the market.

Now it’s fine to say the Chinese won’t cooperate so nothing can be trusted. But that is how one simply dismisses any and all evidence that conflicts with a narrative.

There is literally zero evidence for a lab leak. That’s simply the truth. All there is for that story is the lab worked on coronaviruses and they don’t cooperate. That’s it. No physical evidence points to the lab beyond that kind of empty speculation. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy if it was demonstrated to be a lab leak - that would be far less ominous. But I’ve asked repeatedly for that kind of evidence and have seen nothing.
Enough evidence that numerous intelligence agencies have come to the conclusion the lab leak was most likely the source.
Not to mention every conclusion you've made is based on information provided BY COMMUNIST CHINA. Do you really think theres a chance in hell theyre going to be transparent and allow evidence to be released supporting the lab leak theory? They disappear people for doing anything the govt doesn't like.
They didn't allow outside investigators for over a year for a reason.
It's amazing the mental gymnastics you guys will perform to make sure something Trump hypothesized early on doesn't come true.
 
Enough evidence that numerous intelligence agencies have come to the conclusion the lab leak was most likely the source.
Not to mention every conclusion you've made is based on information provided BY COMMUNIST CHINA. Do you really think theres a chance in hell theyre going to be transparent and allow evidence to be released supporting the lab leak theory? They disappear people for doing anything the govt doesn't like.
They didn't allow outside investigators for over a year for a reason.
It's amazing the mental gymnastics you guys will perform to make sure something Trump hypothesized early on doesn't come true.
Where is your evidence?
 
The Ratg13 virus (most similar to covid) was found deep in a mine thousands of miles away from wuhan. How do you explain how the virus got in the wuhan wet market? Who captured the animals? who killed the animals? who cared for the animals? who cleaned the cages after they were killed? Where is the chain of infections from where these animals were first found to getting to the wet market? Or did they magically fall from the earth into the wet market?

On the contrary, there is a chain of documented events how the samples got from the lab (by a documented researcher) who then studied the samples and was researching if these coronaviruses could jump to a human host.

You can't claim the lab hypothesis is conspiracy and crazy but rationalize the natural origin theory.

It is also possible that the virus is a naturally evolving virus (evolved in the lab without human input) and was accidentally released through a lab leak.

Read this article if you have 5 minutes, its very interesting.
So you state a similar virus transferred to miners in 2012 then question and wonder how the chain of events could have occurred. How about the individual who captured a similar animal as the ones encountered in 2012. This is more rural and likely a single or loner individual, they have symptoms but mild, they likely are the Covid zero patient. They make a trip into the wet market to sell them they infect several in the crowded markets along with whoever buys the animals in question. It’s no different than how does Ebola keep popping up in different locations. I am not discounting it could be a lab leak, but there is nothing showing the link from the lab to the wet market.
 
Then get off my jock and call out other posters claiming all the evidence points to the wet market. Which we know you won't bc you're a brainwashed partisan. Prove me wrong.
Haha. Tell me how I am partisan? I just find it funny how much of a hypocrite you are.
 
Where is your evidence?
Well I linked an article in this very thread.
And noted the FBI, dept of energy and a growing number of other agencies and countries are supporting the conclusion.
This is long, and certainly slanted left, but it helps detail how we got here. Of course politics and money played a huge factor just like they do in everything.
 
Well I linked an article in this very thread.
And noted the FBI, dept of energy and a growing number of other agencies and countries are supporting the conclusion.
This is long, and certainly slanted left, but it helps detail how we got here. Of course politics and money played a huge factor just like they do in everything.
JFC. It's amazing how bad we have become at understanding media. There is nothing of proof. Vanity Fair. Wow. You have already stated that nothing can be believe from China. Make up your mind.
 
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So you state a similar virus transferred to miners in 2012 then question and wonder how the chain of events could have occurred. How about the individual who captured a similar animal as the ones encountered in 2012. This is more rural and likely a single or loner individual, they have symptoms but mild, they likely are the Covid zero patient. They make a trip into the wet market to sell them they infect several in the crowded markets along with whoever buys the animals in question. It’s no different than how does Ebola keep popping up in different locations. I am not discounting it could be a lab leak, but there is nothing showing the link from the lab to the wet market.
You must not have read the links.

The viruses in 2012 were not transmissible from human to human.
The mines were closed down in 2012 (except the Wuhan researchers continued to collect samples between 2012 - 2015)
I suppose it is possible that the researchers went to the mine in 2019, but if they accidentally released it into the wet market, thats still kind of like a lab leak.

The mine was shut down, so people did not continue to get infected by the virus after 2012. However, the researchers continued to collect 1300+ samples up until 2015. The article says that the researchers should release what kind of research has been conducted on the samples since 2012. They should also release the samples from the minors who became sick so other global researchers have a chance to analyze them.

Whether you believe it is natural origin or lab leak, we know that covid spread in the wet market. With either theory, we know the virus made it to the wet market and was spread easily amongst the large crowds. I am 100% sure that covid was not created in the wet market itself, so it came from somewhere before arriving to the wet market.

It seems like a more plausible route for covid to travel the 17 miles from the lab undetected, when the lab was studying a virus that was 96% similar to covid, and they were specifically studying the ability for the virus to jump from animal to human and possibly from human to human. Rather than the plausibility that the virus traveled 1000+ miles from the original mine undetected, or a new virus with 2 different strains occurred close to wuhan, but no other similar wild animal samples have been found.
 
Well I linked an article in this very thread.
And noted the FBI, dept of energy and a growing number of other agencies and countries are supporting the conclusion.
This is long, and certainly slanted left, but it helps detail how we got here. Of course politics and money played a huge factor just like they do in everything.
I linked a journal article and you linked vanity fare. Yeah, it’s the same.
 
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JFC. It's amazing how bad we have become at understanding media. There is nothing of proof. Vanity Fair. Wow. You have already stated that nothing can be believe from China. Make up your mind.
There is no PROOF at this point for either theory. Did you read the articles I posted?

It is likely that 96% of covid originated naturally. The virus was naturally able to infect humans, but was unable to spread from human to human. The researchers added the protein that allowed it to spread from human to human. Somehow the virus leaked from the lab into the city and was spread in large numbers at the wet market.

Remember, covid did not spread as easily as some think. The incidence rate was approximately 403/100,000 people (per cdc). If 3 researchers acquired covid, they would spread it to approximately 0.012 people. If the person they spread it to was young and healthy, they may have had little to no symptoms. It takes a while for a virus like this to get to large enough numbers to draw attention.
 
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