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Tournament Thoughts

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Iowabandwagon

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What a weird tournament. Spencer lost, Rby lost (and was only the 3rd fastest wrestler in his weight class), yianni was a hair away from losing twice, penn state only had two champs (I predicted this one), real got jobbed by himself and the refs but…Murin AA’d, Nelson AA’d, Cass AA’d and Warner hushed the doubters with his AA. I relearned that anybody can be beaten (Lee and RBY hadn’t lost in 100+ matches over a three year period) and that hard work truly does pay off (thank you, max). I’m especially thankful for the career of Spencer Lee and all of the sacrifices he made along the way, the grit of max murin and Jacob Warner, the consistency from Cass and the electricity and swag Real has brought to Iowa. I’m thankful for all of the NCAA wrestlers who left it all on the mat, except sharter stallrocci. Can’t stand that guy. Congrats to Yianni on 4 titles, Parris for getting his first (and most likely the hodge), o’toole for his best Jeremy Hunter impersonation (if you get this on an Iowa board, I’m impressed), Carr for losing with grace, nino for being a deserving good guy, glory for…**** glory. But seriously, this is what makes wrestling and wrestlers so great. We have the privilege of watching them compete for titles but sometimes all they leave with is heartbreak. It’s a tough sport but that’s part of the reason we love it. Win or lose, that’s wrestling.
Special shout out to PK, teske, cobe and assad who didn’t get what they wanted but showed up and no doubt gave it their all. Go Hawks!
 
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That’s a great post. And agree with what you wrote.

There is something missing with Iowa though..and it shows up every year…this year more so because Lee lost.

Years ago I read and watched this board zero in on that Iowa needed mat wrestlers…Iowa responded and got a great team of mat wrestlers and hammers….one thing I’ve always thought was…can we please get some funk in the mat wrestling? Chain wrestling from the down position, working the reverse….
 
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pickr374 said:
That’s a great post. And agree with what you wrote.

There is something missing with Iowa though..and it shows up every year…this year more so because Lee lost.

Years ago I read and watched this board zero in on that Iowa needed mat wrestlers…Iowa responded and got a great team of mat wrestlers and hammers….one thing I’ve always thought was…can we please get some funk in the mat wrestling? Chain wrestling from the down position, working the reverse….
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And being allowed to kick our opponents in the balls when they dance around the mat the whole 1st period with the sole intent of either making it a riding time match or to suck out a counter move.
 
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Iowabandwagon said:
What a weird tournament. Spencer lost, Rby lost (and was only the 3rd fastest wrestler in his weight class), yianni was a hair away from losing twice, penn state only had two champs (I predicted this one), real got jobbed by himself and the refs but…Murin AA’d, Nelson AA’d, Cass AA’d and Warner hushed the doubters with his AA. I relearned that anybody can be beaten (Lee and RBY hadn’t lost in 100+ matches over a three year period) and that hard work truly does pay off (thank you, max). I’m especially thankful for the career of Spencer Lee and all of the sacrifices he made along the way, the grit of max murin and Jacob Warner, the consistency from Cass and the electricity and swag Real has brought to Iowa. I’m thankful for all of the NCAA wrestlers who left it all on the mat, except sharter stallrocci. Can’t stand that guy. Congrats to Yianni on 4 titles, Parris for getting his first (and most likely the hodge), o’toole for his best Jeremy Hunter impersonation (if you get this on an Iowa board, I’m impressed), Carr for losing with grace, nino for being a deserving good guy, glory for…**** glory. But seriously, this is what makes wrestling and wrestlers so great. We have the privilege of watching them compete for titles but sometimes all they leave with is heartbreak. It’s a tough sport but that’s part of the reason we love it. Win or lose, that’s wrestling.
Special shout out to PK, teske, cobe and assad who didn’t get what they wanted but showed up and no doubt gave it their all. Go Hawks!
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Good post. Great take on the tournament. Moving forward I feel like the refs have to figure out how to speed up the replay. What transpired in the Woods match was horrible. Basically takes away the momentum and advantage of the guy in better shape. Just my opinion but I wish they would get that aspect figured out.
 
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NCPsuFan said:
Good post. Great take on the tournament. Moving forward I feel like the refs have to figure out how to speed up the replay. What transpired in the Woods match was horrible. Basically takes away the momentum and advantage of the guy in better shape. Just my opinion but I wish they would get that aspect figured out.
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agree in other sports that have replay also.
If it takes 15 minutes with the help of replay then leave the call the way it was made. If it takes that long, then there obviously is not indisputable evidence to overturn. I drove from Cedar Rapids to Iowa City in the time it took to render the decision (listening to Ironside confusing the shit out of me in regard to what the score was in the match) . (Real Woods Match)
 
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NCPsuFan said:
Good post. Great take on the tournament. Moving forward I feel like the refs have to figure out how to speed up the replay. What transpired in the Woods match was horrible. Basically takes away the momentum and advantage of the guy in better shape. Just my opinion but I wish they would get that aspect figured out.
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That 7 minute replay was a nationwide embarrassment. Add consultant officials that are seated around the mat if they need to but no more replay and no phone conversations please! Riding an opponent for an entire period is stalling plain and simple. When was the last time anyone ever see Lee ride out an opponent?
 
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blubberhawk said:
agree in other sports that have replay also.
If it takes 15 minutes with the help of replay then leave the call the way it was made. If it takes that long, then there obviously is not indisputable evidence to overturn. I drove from Cedar Rapids to Iowa City in the time it took to render the decision (listening to Ironside confusing the shit out of me in regard to what the score was in the match) . (Real Woods Match)
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That’s called deciphering by Ironside.
 
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Overall I thought Iowa wrestled pretty dang well in the tournament. Tough loss for Real, lost because of officiating incompetence. Spencer unfortunately injuries caught up with him. Nelson, Warner, Murin had great tournaments. Cassioppi basically what you expected, think he needs to add weight. Teske and Cobe about what you’d expect with seeding and injury. 165 was deep, hopefully some of that field clears out for next yr. Assad, not sure what happened to this guy but he might need a change of scenery.
 
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Chips28 said:
Replay just needs to go away. You have two officials for a reason, confer and make a decision.
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Agree. If they are going to keep replay, I think it would be great if they put in place some type of maximum time limit for review. Maybe two minutes max or something like that. If no decision is made after "x" amount of time, the ruling automatically defaults to original call on the mat. Review in Woods match was beyond insanity and there are examples of other countless reviews taking longer than basically a regular match would. Hell, college football/NFL reviews seem to be a hell of a lot faster and I think those type of reviews can be a lot harder to determine. Perfect example is some type of fourth and short with a run/QB sneak. Trying to sort through maybe 10+ players to determine the spot of the ball is a hell of a lot more difficult than determining a NF count with two wrestlers.

I don't have the answer, but if they're not going to make it go away, something needs to be done so a match isn't effectively started over because a damn review has taken forever.
 
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I said 6 AAs would be a good tournament. With what happened to Spencer and Woods and not getting any champs, it doesn't feel like a good tournament. In the end, the 6 AAs got the team over the hump to a 2nd place finish as expected and that was a lot better than it could have been. In the end, 2nd is the first loser and I'm sure none of the Hawks are happy with the overall tournament as a team. A lot of crazy upsets, some good, some really not good. Iowa needs to do better than losing to PSU by 50 some points, even if they did get 2nd.
 
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Chips28 said:
If you are being honest and objective it should be.
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But is it considered a success when looking at it over an entire season? Injuries continue to happen for us at what seems to be a higher rate than other teams.

Warner shouldn’t have been in that poor of seeding if he had the year he should have. Tony is what he is at slim Tony. Thick Tony better be back next year. Can we say any of the All American’s (minus Real) exceeded expectations for guys that have been in the room for 5+ years?
 
CesspoolHawk said:
But is it considered a success when looking at it over an entire season? Injuries continue to happen for us at what seems to be a higher rate than other teams.

Warner shouldn’t have been in that poor of seeding if he had the year he should have. Tony is what he is at slim Tony. Thick Tony better be back next year. Can we say any of the All American’s (minus Real) exceeded expectations for guys that have been in the room for 5+ years?
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Depends on your definition of success. Wrestling your best at ncaas is all that matters. You had half the team wrestle to or exceed expectations. Spencer can’t catch a break health wise. Nobody was expecting Teske or Cobe to make AA. PK had a deep weight and is kind of a tweener. Assad has failed to meet expectations again.
 
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Chips28 said:
Depends on your definition of success. Wrestling your best at ncaas is all that matters. You had half the team wrestle to or exceed expectations. Spencer can’t catch a break health wise. Nobody was expecting Teske or Cobe to make AA. PK had a deep weight and is kind of a tweener. Assad has failed to meet expectations again.
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With all respect....everyone's definition of success is a team title. Or ???
 
It seems like over the years Iowa wrestlers have developed shallow gas tanks. Time after time again we see Hawkeye wrestlers come out strong in the first period and then fade, often giving up late takedowns in the 3rd period or just standing around, not shooting because they are just drained of energy and can't fight off their opponents. I like the way we wrestle, I just think some changes in nutrition and conditioning could help.. Iowa needs to be the bullies again...
 
Iowabandwagon said:
What a weird tournament. Spencer lost, Rby lost (and was only the 3rd fastest wrestler in his weight class), yianni was a hair away from losing twice, penn state only had two champs (I predicted this one), real got jobbed by himself and the refs but…Murin AA’d, Nelson AA’d, Cass AA’d and Warner hushed the doubters with his AA. I relearned that anybody can be beaten (Lee and RBY hadn’t lost in 100+ matches over a three year period) and that hard work truly does pay off (thank you, max). I’m especially thankful for the career of Spencer Lee and all of the sacrifices he made along the way, the grit of max murin and Jacob Warner, the consistency from Cass and the electricity and swag Real has brought to Iowa. I’m thankful for all of the NCAA wrestlers who left it all on the mat, except sharter stallrocci. Can’t stand that guy. Congrats to Yianni on 4 titles, Parris for getting his first (and most likely the hodge), o’toole for his best Jeremy Hunter impersonation (if you get this on an Iowa board, I’m impressed), Carr for losing with grace, nino for being a deserving good guy, glory for…**** glory. But seriously, this is what makes wrestling and wrestlers so great. We have the privilege of watching them compete for titles but sometimes all they leave with is heartbreak. It’s a tough sport but that’s part of the reason we love it. Win or lose, that’s wrestling.
Special shout out to PK, teske, cobe and assad who didn’t get what they wanted but showed up and no doubt gave it their all. Go Hawks!
Click to expand...
Well stated friend! Hate that we have to wait 8 months to see them on the mat again!
 
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ichawks said:
That 7 minute replay was a nationwide embarrassment. Add consultant officials that are seated around the mat if they need to but no more replay and no phone conversations please! Riding an opponent for an entire period is stalling plain and simple. When was the last time anyone ever see Lee ride out an opponent?
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Some guy on the psu sight mentioned phone issues and said the referees were annoyed. I think they had to use cell phones at least part of the time.
You think they'd have this down for nationals.
 
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bourbon n blues said:
Some guy on the psu sight mentioned phone issues and said the referees were annoyed. I think they had to use cell phones at least part of the time.
You think they'd have this down for nationals.
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Yeah I read that too. Whatever the issue is needs to be fixed. The nature of the sport is that conditioned wrestlers have an advantage. You can’t take a 4-7 minute interlude during the match. I do like the ability to have oversight on shitty refs like Angel Rivera (he has been awful again, it’s the one thing both BWI and HR consistently agree on). Get rid of the replay all together or give them a maximum 30 seconds to make a call and have action started again. Figure out a way to make sure refs concur on the calls being made. I thought there may have been time for a 4 count on Woods but the bottom line is he (Angel) didn’t swipe four times so you cannot overturn that call and award 4. That was a horrible decision by the refs. Anyway, it’s not working the way it is. That we all agree on.
 
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bourbon n blues said:
If they did eliminate it people would complain the first call that's blatantly wrong , to state the obvious. It needs to be fixed somehow.
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The problem is calls are still wrong even with review. So instead of 1 chance at being wrong (original call) there are 2 chances of being wrong (original call and review) and it is slowing down the flow of the individual match and the flow of the tournament/dual.
 
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UndercoverHawk said:
The problem is calls are still wrong even with review. So instead of 1 chance at being wrong (original call) there are 2 chances of being wrong (original call and review) and it is slowing down the flow of the individual match and the flow of the tournament/dual.
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I would also add that I’m a huge baseball fan (probably more so than Iowa wrestling) and I don’t like the replay in there that much either. I hate that almost every play that’s somewhat close you get both teams pointing to their dugouts to review. Every single time. And I hate that they are reviewing to see if a fingernail touched the base before a guy gets tagged, or if a fingernail comes off the bag for a pixel. It’s just dumb. And don’t get me started on robot balls and strikes.
 
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BIG10MANIAC said:
It seems like over the years Iowa wrestlers have developed shallow gas tanks. Time after time again we see Hawkeye wrestlers come out strong in the first period and then fade, often giving up late takedowns in the 3rd period or just standing around, not shooting because they are just drained of energy and can't fight off their opponents. I like the way we wrestle, I just think some changes in nutrition and conditioning could help.. Iowa needs to be the bullies again...
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you’re watching but it’s not Iowa wrestling. Conditioning is not an issue and the injury thing is more bad luck than anything.
 
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UndercoverHawk said:
The problem is calls are still wrong even with review. So instead of 1 chance at being wrong (original call) there are 2 chances of being wrong (original call and review) and it is slowing down the flow of the individual match and the flow of the tournament/dual.
Click to expand...
Good point here. It would be one thing if they were actually getting a high percentage of 'rightfully' challenged calls overturned (which is debatable I suppose depending on the colors you cheer for), but when they still get egregiously wrong calls wrong on review, it makes you just want to go back to the way it used to be. The level of complaining about bad calls/reviews now can't be much, if any, different than pre-review.
 
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I.J.W.T. said:
With all respect....everyone's definition of success is a team title. Or ???
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Although that is the standard and a true Iowa team expectation, it simply isn’t fair for the team they started the year with. Anyone with basic knowledge of wrestling at that level knew PSU was considerably ahead and that was even before Haines became the starter.

Iowa had 10 guys win at NCAA’s. Even PSU only had 8.

125: Lee is simply injury prone. It isn’t an Iowa thing. It’s a Spencer thing. Sadly, it got him at the worst time, but he still AA’d and scored solid team points.

133: Teske got a bad seed due to not having enough matches. He still won a match and probably wins 1 or 2 more with a proper seed. Mind you, I think 133 was probably just as deep or deeper than 165 that got talked about so much.

141: Woods wrestled a great tourney. Had 1 brain fart, coupled with a bad review, cost him a title.

149: Murin was a warrior. His body just wore out on the last day. You could see him limping pretty good at the end. Still 6th was more than expected.

157: Going into the year, 1-2 at NCAA’s is more than nearly anyone thought could happen at this weight. If not for the shoulder, who knows what would have happened.

165: Hard to say. He had a brutal draw. Still, you want him beating guys like Amine and especially Ramirez. But, they both wrested styles that confounded him. He is a guy that needs to gameplan more than “impose” his style. 165 is too talented for that mentality.

174: Awesome. Couldn’t have expected more.

184: get fully healthy and hit the weight room HARD. Has the talent. Still won a match.

197: my favorite Hawkeye of the past 5 years. Shut up all the doubters. Elam is just a terrible match up with his length and speed. Surprised Sloan beat him.

285: This weight has simply had 3 bigger, stronger faster guys all 3 years. The best thing is how consistent he is. He always beats the guys he should and does his best to have a punchers chance against the guys he can’t.

I would give this team a B overall. By no fault of his own Lee taking 6th hurts and Kennedy not getting on the podium adds to that. Other than that several guys overperformed and the rest held serve.
 
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I thought it was a pretty good overall tournament by the Hawks. Spencer’s injury (and subsequent loss) is obviously the big disappointment for us all.

No, not winning a championship and finishing second is not failure. We do not have the Jimmys and the Johns to win it. We did pretty good with the talent we had. It is that plain and simple. Until we can get a top 10 PFP kid at almost every weight, we will not be getting first. PSU simply has too great of athletes and wrestlers out of HS to compete effectively with them.

We need to work on getting the HS talent and athletes to make it happen or you root for the next kid you can get. Max and Nelson are not individual national championship material. I love those guys and am very proud of them for going out and getting the AAs. Being disappointed that these two guys didn’t win a NC for us is just kind of silly. They wrestled up to their God given abilities and gutted out a lot of great wins and we need to be extremely happy with that.

Now let’s go get those top 10 PFPers and transfers to put us in a position to win it all!!
 
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WEH8ST8HAWK said:
Ban the Penn State leg hump as we call it. If you trap the ankle with your leg or grab it with your hand or trap it between your legs you're stalling, period. You're not trying to turn your oponent, you're stalling. Call it. Get rid of the count, call stalling.
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Amen, the only place I want the count is on mat returns because there is no letting go to game the count there. It's cut him, return him or get a stall. The rest of the time they just need to call stalling.
 
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Chips28 said:
Replay just needs to go away. You have two officials for a reason, confer and make a decision.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In a sport like basketball or football, where there are lots of stoppages, it makes sense. I don’t like it for wrestling though. Or, I’d like a timer on it. Minute review or something starting from the time the ref reaches the “review box”. Like someone said above, if you can’t decide on a min, then it’s not that clear and it should stay as called
 
Chain wrestling, yes. Not just from bottom. The best wrestlers chain wrestle and aren’t scared of being scored on. We need to develop and game plan better too. Everyone says get more top tens and while that’s certainly true, the ones we are getting aren’t winning titles. Spencer is the only one and he would’ve won multiple wrestling for anybody. It’s not a good look. No matter how you slice it. And spencer losing in his final year doesn’t help with recruiting no matter what the circumstances are. As for game planning, we are very behind. Spencer is probably a 4 timer right now if game planning was better and other factors that I don’t want to go on about right now. Vito, who was no doubt better, would’ve had a completely different looking rby if they had wrestled twice during the regular season/ bigs. That’s the power of game planning. But in the end, I’m just pissed Spencer didn’t get his 4th and that psu is going to continue to dominate. Sigh.
 
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pickr374 said:
That’s a great post. And agree with what you wrote.

There is something missing with Iowa though..and it shows up every year…this year more so because Lee lost.

Years ago I read and watched this board zero in on that Iowa needed mat wrestlers…Iowa responded and got a great team of mat wrestlers and hammers….one thing I’ve always thought was…can we please get some funk in the mat wrestling? Chain wrestling from the down position, working the reverse….
Click to expand...
pickr374 said:
That’s a great post. And agree with what you wrote.

There is something missing with Iowa though..and it shows up every year…this year more so because Lee lost.

Years ago I read and watched this board zero in on that Iowa needed mat wrestlers…Iowa responded and got a great team of mat wrestlers and hammers….one thing I’ve always thought was…can we please get some funk in the mat wrestling? Chain wrestling from the down position, working the reverse….
Click to expand...
Meant to reply to you in my post above 👆
 
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