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COVID-19 Thread

Interesting. The White House was warned by ECONOMISTS in 2019 that a pandemic would cause havoc in the US. I guess the White House wasn’t listening to anyone when it came to readiness for a public health catastrophe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/business/coronavirus-economy-trump.html
Warnings such as this have come out every few years since at least 2001. Many countries have had the same warnings. I guess none of the world leaders were listening and none of the governors were listening. The blame game right now is very stupid for what appears to be an intelligent person.
 
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9 yo in Oelwein with no preexisting conditions died from COVID19 yesterday. Iowa is one of the 11 states that does not have a shelter in place order.
Iowa is also one of the worst states adhering to the social distancing, according to cellular data.
 
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Iowa is also one of the worst states adhering to the social distancing, according to cellular data.

That data does not measure social distancing. It measures changes in social distancing. Thus, New York, an incredibly dense population state gets an A- and Wyoming, a sparsely populated states get graded F. Wyoming was already "socially distanced.' Very misleading info.
 
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9 yo in Oelwein with no preexisting conditions died from COVID19 yesterday. Iowa is one of the 11 states that does not have a shelter in place order.

Are you sure about that? I live in the area and have connections to the town. I've seen nothing that says his death was Covid related. None of the 9 Iowa deaths lists a 9 year old. Would be a huge deal, I'd think.

An Iowa-wide shelter in place feels like a waste of time. For the comparatively small number of non-essential jobs in Iowa, I think it puts people out of work potentially without having an effect on ability to provide medical care. And it does not appear Iowa will be challenged to provide medical care even on the "bad" end of projections.
 
That data does not measure social distancing. It measures changes in social distancing. Thus, New York, an incredibly dense population state gets an A- and Wyoming, a sparsely populated states get graded F. Wyoming was already "socially distanced.' Very misleading info.
Not that misleading when the article already states what you are quoting. I live in omaha. Most of my work is based across the river in Iowa. Social distancing is not really happening here. Yes people out and about has slowed down but not by much. The local petrol stations are still churning out pizza and junk food for the public to consume. Out for whoever to grab. So yes the diagram may be a little skewed, but what do you think would happen when Iowa and Nebraska are 2 of the last Midwest states not to implement a lock down
 
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Are you sure about that? I live in the area and have connections to the town. I've seen nothing that says his death was Covid related. None of the 9 Iowa deaths lists a 9 year old. Would be a huge deal, I'd think.

An Iowa-wide shelter in place feels like a waste of time. For the comparatively small number of non-essential jobs in Iowa, I think it puts people out of work potentially without having an effect on ability to provide medical care. And it does not appear Iowa will be challenged to provide medical care even on the "bad" end of projections.
Just to put into perspective, CB a town of roughly 65,000 that has 2 hospitals has as of three weeks ago, a total of 30-35 ventilators.
 
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This is getting pretty scary here in NJ. I worry about us not having enough Hospital beds if these numbers keep rising. I feel like our State Govt. is doing a good job but are they going to be able to handle this? We lost 182 just last night. Please take this Virus very seriously and stay safe!
 
That data does not measure social distancing. It measures changes in social distancing. Thus, New York, an incredibly dense population state gets an A- and Wyoming, a sparsely populated states get graded F. Wyoming was already "socially distanced.' Very misleading info.

Rural Iowa is doing a pretty darn good job. They complain about the reaction being overblown while also saying if it isn't all the old people and a relative lack of local hospitals will not fare well. Businesses are also being very cautious with locked front doors and calling ahead for appointments so they can determine if letting a customer in is best. No one wants to be the 1st community spreader in a small community.

I was finishing up on a business call sitting in a hardware store parking lot the other day and saw 20 people wander in and out of a bike store next door in a metro area. It was pretty disappointing especially the 3 people who parked in a fire lane to unload a bike from their vehicle while leaving it unattended while going inside. Not 20 feet away were open parking spots. Just laziness and apathy on a normal day let alone during a pandemic.

Gov Reynolds has been far more proactive vs reactive than most rural State Governors. I hope she will go with a 5 to 10 county shelter in place as opposed to a statewide one. Most of the corn in the state will get planted while social distancing continues. If the end of the month has decent weather conditions (no frost risks) many of the soybeans may get in also.
 
Not that misleading when the article already states what you are quoting. I live in omaha. Most of my work is based across the river in Iowa. Social distancing is not really happening here. Yes people out and about has slowed down but not by much. The local petrol stations are still churning out pizza and junk food for the public to consume. Out for whoever to grab. So yes the diagram may be a little skewed, but what do you think would happen when Iowa and Nebraska are 2 of the last Midwest states not to implement a lock down

If the article wasn't misleading then your comment was a mischaracterization.

From what I have observed in my area, people are being very careful and socially distancing. Yes, there are exceptions or bad examples but those are minimal and some bad apples that are giving the rest of everyone a bad name.

I don't get your point about food. Which food places should stay open and which should shut down?
 
If the article wasn't misleading then your comment was a mischaracterization.

From what I have observed in my area, people are being very careful and socially distancing. Yes, there are exceptions or bad examples but those are minimal and some bad apples that are giving the rest of everyone a bad name.

I don't get your point about food. Which food places should stay open and which should shut down?
The food I am talking about is at the petrol stations. Apparently you are not allowed to bring in your own cup to get a refill but anyone can grab what they want off the grillers/rollers or the rotating heat boxes.
 
So far, U of I has seen 6 pos Covid patients. 3 are in ICU, 2 were discharged...don't know where the other one is. Wife had a presumptive one that turned out to be negative.
 
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So far, U of I has seen 6 pos Covid patients. 3 are in ICU, 2 were discharged...don't know where the other one is. Wife had a presumptive one that turned out to be negative.

hiding in the tunnels under the hospital.

Those are fun by the way. You can go from one side of that medical campus to the other without going outside. Just gotta be comfortable walking by the morgue!
 

funny, I was just reading the paper when you posted this this. T minus 18 months minimum for human trials unfortunately.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/ebiom/PIIS2352-3964(20)30118-3.pdf

(the only reason I am negative about that is this issue is it is why we need to fund Scientific research thoroughly. Many groups have been working on Coronavirus vaccines since SARSCOV1, and the funding levels in this Country have just been abysmal over the last 15-20 yrs, so even though the vaccines have shown promise, they haven’t had the funding for clinical trials.)
 
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funny, I was just reading the paper when you posted this this. T minus 18 months minimum for human trials unfortunately.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/ebiom/PIIS2352-3964(20)30118-3.pdf

(the only reason I am negative about that is this issue is it is why we need to fund Scientific research thoroughly. Many groups have been working on Coronavirus vaccines since SARSCOV1, and the funding levels in this Country have just been abysmal over the last 15-20 yrs, so even though the vaccines have shown promise, they haven’t had the funding for clinical trials.)

I thought 18 months was when it should be ready for the public?
 
I thought 18 months was when it should be ready for the public?

if it worked perfectly and the studies in humans went without a hitch, the safety and efficacy trials for any vaccine are a minimum of 18 months. The 18 months doesn’t include animal studies.
 
Yes. Tested, and results came back after he passed.

Thanks, I will be on the lookout for this information. Seems strange he would have died at home and not a hospital if that were the case but there could be many reasons for it.
 
The food I am talking about is at the petrol stations. Apparently you are not allowed to bring in your own cup to get a refill but anyone can grab what they want off the grillers/rollers or the rotating heat boxes.

Those heated boxes have been shut down in OR. No more serve yourself bakery goods in the stores either.
 
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Rural Iowa is doing a pretty darn good job. They complain about the reaction being overblown while also saying if it isn't all the old people and a relative lack of local hospitals will not fare well. Businesses are also being very cautious with locked front doors and calling ahead for appointments so they can determine if letting a customer in is best. No one wants to be the 1st community spreader in a small community.

I was finishing up on a business call sitting in a hardware store parking lot the other day and saw 20 people wander in and out of a bike store next door in a metro area. It was pretty disappointing especially the 3 people who parked in a fire lane to unload a bike from their vehicle while leaving it unattended while going inside. Not 20 feet away were open parking spots. Just laziness and apathy on a normal day let alone during a pandemic.

Gov Reynolds has been far more proactive vs reactive than most rural State Governors. I hope she will go with a 5 to 10 county shelter in place as opposed to a statewide one. Most of the corn in the state will get planted while social distancing continues. If the end of the month has decent weather conditions (no frost risks) many of the soybeans may get in also.
Thanks Scruffy! This is good news.
 
if you read Facebook it’s says his obit or cause of death won’t be released until after his burial. I guess they may have tested him and sent him home, which isn’t abnormal. Results came back post mortem.

But did they confirm that that was the cause of death, or just that he had it? Seems like that could be 2 different things.
 
But did they confirm that that was the cause of death, or just that he had it? Seems like that could be 2 different things.

nobody really dies from SARS, just like you don’t die from HIV. Usually the Pneumonia that is secondary to infection kills you, or you die of a heart attack because of a hyper inflammatory response that causes your cardiovascular system to work too hard. On planet Earth, most HIV patients die of Tuberculosis when they have AIDS.

google ARDS too, that is another cause of death for COVID patients.
 
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More food for thought

In announcing the most far-reaching restrictions on personal freedom in the history of our nation, Boris Johnson resolutely followed the scientific advice that he had been given. The advisers to the government seem calm and collected, with a solid consensus among them. In the face of a new viral threat, with numbers of cases surging daily, I’m not sure that any prime minister would have acted very differently.

But I’d like to raise some perspectives that have hardly been aired in the past weeks, and which point to an interpretation of the figures rather different from that which the government is acting on. I’m a recently-retired Professor of Pathology and NHS consultant pathologist, and have spent most of my adult life in healthcare and science – fields which, all too often, are characterised by doubt rather than certainty. There is room for different interpretations of the current data. If some of these other interpretations are correct, or at least nearer to the truth, then conclusions about the actions required will change correspondingly.

The simplest way to judge whether we have an exceptionally lethal disease is to look at the death rates. Are more people dying than we would expect to die anyway in a given week or month? Statistically, we would expect about 51,000 to die in Britain this month. At the time of writing, 422 deaths are linked to Covid-19 — so 0.8 per cent of that expected total. On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year. The world’s 18,944 coronavirus deaths represent 0.14 per cent of that total. These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). Not figures that would, in and of themselves, cause drastic global reactions.

Initial reported figures from China and Italy suggested a death rate of 5 per cent to 15 per cent, similar to Spanish flu. Given that cases were increasing exponentially, this raised the prospect of death rates that no healthcare system in the world would be able to cope with. The need to avoid this scenario is the justification for measures being implemented: the Spanish flu is believed to have infected about one in four of the world’s population between 1918 and 1920, or roughly 500 million people with 50 million deaths. We developed pandemic emergency plans, ready to snap into action in case this happened again.

At the time of writing, the UK’s 422 deaths and 8,077 known cases give an apparent death rate of 5 per cent. This is often cited as a cause for concern, contrasted with the mortality rate of seasonal flu, which is estimated at about 0.1 per cent. But we ought to look very carefully at the data. Are these figures really comparable?

Most of the UK testing has been in hospitals, where there is a high concentration of patients susceptible to the effects of any infection. As anyone who has worked with sick people will know, any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will over-estimate the virulence of an infection. Also, we’re only dealing with those Covid-19 cases that have made people sick enough or worried enough to get tested. There will be many more unaware that they have the virus, with either no symptoms, or mild ones.

Any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will overestimate the virulence of an infection

That’s why, when Britain had 590 diagnosed cases, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific adviser, suggested that the real figure was probably between 5,000 and 10,000 cases, ten to 20 times higher. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus is likely to be ten to 20 times lower, say 0.25 per cent to 0.5 per cent. That puts the Covid-19 mortality rate in the range associated with infections like flu.

But there’s another, potentially even more serious problem: the way that deaths are recorded. If someone dies of a respiratory infection in the UK, the specific cause of the infection is not usually recorded, unless the illness is a rare ‘notifiable disease’. So the vast majority of respiratory deaths in the UK are recorded as bronchopneumonia, pneumonia, old age or a similar designation. We don’t really test for flu, or other seasonal infections. If the patient has, say, cancer, motor neurone disease or another serious disease, this will be recorded as the cause of death, even if the final illness was a respiratory infection. This means UK certifications normally under-record deaths due to respiratory infections.

Now look at what has happened since the emergence of Covid-19. The list of notifiable diseases has been updated. This list — as well as containing smallpox (which has been extinct for many years) and conditions such as anthrax, brucellosis, plague and rabies (which most UK doctors will never see in their entire careers) — has now been amended to include Covid-19. But not flu. That means every positive test for Covid-19 must be notified, in a way that it just would not be for flu or most other infections.

In the current climate, anyone with a positive test for Covid-19 will certainly be known to clinical staff looking after them: if any of these patients dies, staff will have to record the Covid-19 designation on the death certificate — contrary to usual practice for most infections of this kind. There is a big difference between Covid-19 causing death, and Covid-19 being found in someone who died of other causes. Making Covid-19 notifiable might give the appearance of it causing increasing numbers of deaths, whether this is true or not. It might appear far more of a killer than flu, simply because of the way deaths are recorded.

If we take drastic measures to reduce the incidence of Covid-19, it follows that the deaths will also go down. We risk being convinced that we have averted something that was never really going to be as severe as we feared. This unusual way of reporting Covid-19 deaths explains the clear finding that most of its victims have underlying conditions — and would normally be susceptible to other seasonal viruses, which are virtually never recorded as a specific cause of death.

Let us also consider the Covid-19 graphs, showing an exponential rise in cases — and deaths. They can look alarming. But if we tracked flu or other seasonal viruses in the same way, we would also see an exponential increase. We would also see some countries behind others, and striking fatality rates. The United States Centers for Disease Control, for example, publishes weekly estimates of flu cases. The latest figures show that since September, flu has infected 38 million Americans, hospitalised 390,000 and killed 23,000. This does not cause public alarm because flu is familiar.

The data on Covid-19 differs wildly from country to country. Look at the figures for Italy and Germany. At the time of writing, Italy has 69,176 recorded cases and 6,820 deaths, a rate of 9.9 per cent. Germany has 32,986 cases and 157 deaths, a rate of 0.5 per cent. Do we think that the strain of virus is so different in these nearby countries as to virtually represent different diseases? Or that the populations are so different in their susceptibility to the virus that the death rate can vary more than twentyfold? If not, we ought to suspect systematic error, that the Covid-19 data we are seeing from different countries is not directly comparable.
 
The last part of the post

Look at other rates: Spain 7.1 per cent, US 1.3 per cent, Switzerland 1.3 per cent, France 4.3 per cent, South Korea 1.3 per cent, Iran 7.8 per cent. We may very well be comparing apples with oranges. Recording cases where there was a positive test for the virus is a very different thing to recording the virus as the main cause of death.

Early evidence from Iceland, a country with a very strong organisation for wide testing within the population, suggests that as many as 50 per cent of infections are almost completely asymptomatic. Most of the rest are relatively minor. In fact, Iceland’s figures, 648 cases and two attributed deaths, give a death rate of 0.3 per cent. As population testing becomes more widespread elsewhere in the world, we will find a greater and greater proportion of cases where infections have already occurred and caused only mild effects. In fact, as time goes on, this will become generally truer too, because most infections tend to decrease in virulence as an epidemic progresses.

One pretty clear indicator is death. If a new infection is causing many extra people to die (as opposed to an infection present in people who would have died anyway) then it will cause an increase in the overall death rate. But we have yet to see any statistical evidence for excess deaths, in any part of the world.

Covid-19 can clearly cause serious respiratory tract compromise in some patients, especially those with chest issues, and in smokers. The elderly are probably more at risk, as they are for infections of any kind. The average age of those dying in Italy is 78.5 years, with almost nine in ten fatalities among the over-70s. The life expectancy in Italy — that is, the number of years you can expect to live to from birth, all things being equal — is 82.5 years. But all things are not equal when a new seasonal virus goes around.

It certainly seems reasonable, now, that a degree of social distancing should be maintained for a while, especially for the elderly and the immune-suppressed. But when drastic measures are introduced, they should be based on clear evidence. In the case of Covid-19, the evidence is not clear. The UK’s lockdown has been informed by modelling of what might happen. More needs to be known about these models. Do they correct for age, pre-existing conditions, changing virulence, the effects of death certification and other factors? Tweak any of these assumptions and the outcome (and predicted death toll) can change radically.

Much of the response to Covid-19 seems explained by the fact that we are watching this virus in a way that no virus has been watched before. The scenes from the Italian hospitals have been shocking, and make for grim television. But television is not science.

Clearly, the various lockdowns will slow the spread of Covid-19 so there will be fewer cases. When we relax the measures, there will be more cases again. But this need not be a reason to keep the lockdown: the spread of cases is only something to fear if we are dealing with an unusually lethal virus. That’s why the way we record data will be hugely important. Unless we tighten criteria for recording death due only to the virus (as opposed to it being present in those who died from other conditions), the official figures may show a lot more deaths apparently caused by the virus than is actually the case. What then? How do we measure the health consequences of taking people’s lives, jobs, leisure and purpose away from them to protect them from an anticipated threat? Which causes least harm?
 
The last part of the post

Look at other rates: Spain 7.1 per cent, US 1.3 per cent, Switzerland 1.3 per cent, France 4.3 per cent, South Korea 1.3 per cent, Iran 7.8 per cent. We may very well be comparing apples with oranges. Recording cases where there was a positive test for the virus is a very different thing to recording the virus as the main cause of death.

Early evidence from Iceland, a country with a very strong organisation for wide testing within the population, suggests that as many as 50 per cent of infections are almost completely asymptomatic. . . .

. . . The data on Covid-19 differs wildly from country to country. Look at the figures for Italy and Germany. At the time of writing, Italy has 69,176 recorded cases and 6,820 deaths, a rate of 9.9 per cent. Germany has 32,986 cases and 157 deaths, a rate of 0.5 per cent. Do we think that the strain of virus is so different in these nearby countries as to virtually represent different diseases? Or that the populations are so different in their susceptibility to the virus that the death rate can vary more than twentyfold? If not, we ought to suspect systematic error, that the Covid-19 data we are seeing from different countries is not directly comparable.
You've tried to make the same case over and over and over. Give it up for while. In a couple of weeks, you'll find out if you're right or simply ranting.
 
nobody really dies from SARS, just like you don’t die from HIV. Usually the Pneumonia that is secondary to infection kills you, or you die of a heart attack because of a hyper inflammatory response that causes your cardiovascular system to work too hard. On planet Earth, most HIV patients die of Tuberculosis when they have AIDS.

google ARDS too, that is another cause of death for COVID patients.

Good points. The same is true of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic that killed so many. The primary cause of death was usually bacterial pneumonia. Those were the days prior to antibiotics.
 
Good points. The same is true of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic that killed so many. The primary cause of death was usually bacterial pneumonia. Those were the days prior to antibiotics.
That is true about flu. Covid is different because the cause of death is usually pneumonia, but it is not bacterial. The pneumonia is directly caused by the covid and thus the cause of death.
 
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nobody really dies from SARS, just like you don’t die from HIV. Usually the Pneumonia that is secondary to infection kills you, or you die of a heart attack because of a hyper inflammatory response that causes your cardiovascular system to work too hard. On planet Earth, most HIV patients die of Tuberculosis when they have AIDS.

google ARDS too, that is another cause of death for COVID patients.

Fair enough, but all the things you listed are being attributed to COVID in the death totals as far as I'm aware. I don't see anything coming up in a search about a child in Iowa, which one would think you would especially in a state with few deaths as a whole. It seems all of the younger deaths nationally are getting publicized, even though they often call out that they are still testing to see if there was another cause of death, such as the IL one mentioned earlier, and a 7-week old in CT.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/newborn-in-connecticut-dies-of-coronavirus/2248709/
 
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You've tried to make the same case over and over and over. Give it up for while. In a couple of weeks, you'll find out if you're right or simply ranting.
He is actually trying a whole new tact: saying Covid 19 is not so bad because we should not count most of the cases of death. Truly ignorant.
 
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He is actually trying a whole new tact: saying Covid 19 is not so bad because we should not count most of the cases of death. Truly ignorant.

Too many folks are focusing on death counts as of today, without grasping what the exponential growth of covid-19 has in store.

The U.S. has "only" had 6,057 deaths. NYC has "only" had 1562 deaths (JohnsHopkins). NYC hospitals are currently overwhelmed - including the doctors and nurses.

But by the end of April, models are predicting New York state alone will likely exceed 100,000 deaths.

https://covidactnow.org/state/NY

That is why Dr Fauci has been saying it will get worse before it gets better.
 
This is getting pretty scary here in NJ. I worry about us not having enough Hospital beds if these numbers keep rising. I feel like our State Govt. is doing a good job but are they going to be able to handle this? We lost 182 just last night. Please take this Virus very seriously and stay safe!

Here are projections for NJ, and best of luck to you:

https://covidactnow.org/state/NJ
 
-OH. Can be a big difference. It makes organic substances like ethane water soluble. Ethanol is one -OH added to ethane, which makes it dissolvable in the blood and quickly absorbed.

The magatards have been taking it already. It’s like the Heaven’s Gate cult all over again.

https://time.com/5808688/chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus-death/
Not to nitpick but to compare the effect the hydroxy group has on ethane/ethanol vs. Chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine is not helpful or illustrative. First, ethane was a poor example because of it's low boiling point which has to be -90F or lower. Why not choose hexane/hexanol? And in the case of hexanol, it is slightly miscible in water.

Chloroquine actually is not insoluble in water.

Your video link cites chloroquine phosphate (not chloroquine), the phosphate salt of chloroquine, which would be expected to be water soluble due to its quasi-ionic nature. It is the salt form (ie hydrochloride, sulfate, phosphate) that give these types of compounds water solubility much more than the hydroxy group.

Take paclitaxel as as example. 3 hydroxy groups and very poor water solubility.

I'm not questioning the importance of the hydroxy group as hydrogen bonding is required for life as we know it.

I know in the scheme of things this isn't a big deal, but I thought a clarification to be in order.
 
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He is actually trying a whole new tact: saying Covid 19 is not so bad because we should not count most of the cases of death. Truly ignorant.
That's just a new wrinkle. Same result, though. As the weeks go by, maybe he'll start to realize . . . Maybe not. Nevermind.
 
That’s why, when Britain had 590 diagnosed cases, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific adviser, suggested that the real figure was probably between 5,000 and 10,000 cases, ten to 20 times higher. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus is likely to be ten to 20 times lower, say 0.25 per cent to 0.5 per cent. That puts the Covid-19 mortality rate in the range associated with infections like flu.

How many cases of the flu do you think go unreported? This is a terrible attempt to compare COVID-19 rates to the flu.
 
Just a reminder that loss of taste and or smell is a symptom of COVID-19 and can be present when you have no other symptoms.

It can be an easily noticed signal that you or others may be infected.

 
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