i understand you said he would have been a 4 timer but unless i misunderstood, you framed it as though despite covid he still should have been and it was the brands fault he didn’t. if i am wrong then my apologies but i still don’t think 133 would have helped anything
Official Portal Watch
- Thread starter eb05
- Start date
i understand you said he would have been a 4 timer but unless i misunderstood, you framed it as though despite covid he still should have been and it was the brands fault he didn’t. if i am wrong then my apologies but i still don’t think 133 would have helped anything
I don't think the perception is he makes guys wrestle with injuries, I think the perception is he beats the hell out of them until they're a shell of their former selves by their senior season.
I don't believe that is what happens. I do think the extension on their college careers because of the covid crap has taken a toll on some guys. Guys have had some unfortunate injuries during competition.
1 question, according to what you and some others believe, if the grind of an Iowa practice is so hard on them why did we not see those issues during the Gable years? I've had lots of conversations with guys who wrestled for Gable and hear them talk about the intensity and how hard Gable's practices were. Yet, injuries didn't seem to be an issue and they weren't a "shell of their former self by their senior year." I believe Gable's practices and workouts were harder than Tom's. Why is it supposedly an issue now, but wasn't then?
Valid question, and i don't have an answer for you--other than to ask you the exact same thing. It happened long before Covid, and continues to happen after--Covid is moot.
Kids these days wrestle way more matches before they get to college than they used to. They also get much more mat time. There’s more of an emphasis on doing one sport and doing it year around. Then add the kids that do clubs. They not only have their school practices, they’re also doing a club practice.
it happened with 1 guy and that was matt mcdonough.. that is an outlier not a trend
Not sure why you are asking me. I don't think Tom's practices/training is making them "a shell of their former self".
The fact that you feel like it was “only MM” tells me you’re not objectively looking at this and not worth the time. Have a good one.
This is what I hear more than wrestling with injuries (never heard that)
people said it about real woods this year. that tom was making him wrestle through the injury. vhs I think?
Late career injuries/regression (off the top of my head):
DSJ - champ as a junior, fifth as a senior and got destroyed twice.
Ramos - Pulled through at the end, but was worse as a senior. Losses to Schopp (majored 9-0 the year before) and pinned by Colon.
Clark - serious injury, pulled through at the tournament.
Gilman - upset by a guy he's dominated every other time they've wrestled
Lofthouse - returning AA, early exit from a top 5 seed
Nick Moore - top 5 seed junior, shell of himself fringe qualifier as a senior
Kemerer - undefeated number 1 seed, body fell apart as a senior, finished 4th
Spencer - worst career finish as senior
Eierman - worst career finish as senior, serious injury
Kaleb Young - worst career finish as senior
Sorensen - worst career finish as senior
Marinelli - Finished below seed all 4 tournaments, had his worst overall year as a senior
Warner - finals to 5th in last year (after his worst career season, 14 seed at the tournament)
Woods - finals to 4th, rumored serious injury (both losses to guys he soundly beat earlier)
Cassioppi - hard to judge because of the size change. Finished worse as a sophomore and junior than as a freshman. Didn't see final year.
That was not the same Starocci we know now. Kemerer should have beaten him (again).
Okay, most recently, off the top of my head:
Woods
Lee
Marinelli
Eierman
But again, you're not looking at it objectively so it's not my worth anyone's time to really dig into it.
"wrestling with injury" is definitely overblown. we've seen tons of guys sit out. that's not my worry.
using a training system that leads to injury and wearing down/burning out is the real question. posted a pretty long list of guys who regressed or were injured late in their careers.
While I agree that Kem should have won that match, they were very close in both matches they wrestled that year. Both were 1 takedown to 0. C Star ended up a 4 timer (at least) so I don't agree that it was Kem regressing that caused that loss. C Star was great defensively even then and used Kemerer's aggression to beat him. Both were really good.
No, Kem scored two takedowns and 2 nearfall at big tens.
Yeah. why don't you take a few seats sir. The adults are talking.
This is very true! One thing however that I found interesting. During the big ten tournament, Ironside was talking about how few of matches the Penn State guys wrestled this year compared to ours and others. Is Cael intentionally keeping that number lower so they are staying healthier and stronger at the end of the season? Several of their guys were at 15 to 17 matches for the year at that time. That is where the midlands and southern scuffle and holiday tournaments will start to fade away if that’s the trend.
Your Tourette's is kicking in bud.
It's not just the "wearing them out at practice", although that's a thing as well. It's the same reason the wing T and three yards and a cloud of dust doesn't work today. Schemes, training and coaching have all changed significantly in the past 25-30 years. We would run until we puked and were deprived of water years ago. Everyone did it, so everybody was on equal footing. Gable did it better than others to the point guys pushed past that wall.
Now the best programs are teaching not how to get past that invisible wall, but how to solve your opponent. How to scramble better, how plan for the match, how to adapt in the match, etc, etc. Not just be the best grinder and to wear the other guy down. Instead of impose your will.....score points, score points and score points. Wear them down with take down activity instead of just forward pressure.
you named clark and ramos who both won their senior years.
sorenson and dsj could be good examples. i don’t recall if injuries were an issue with them. lofthouse seemed to underperform most years and moore was snake bitten his whole career in my recollection.
the rest were covid years
follow the conversation. Covid years being the cause of late year strugges was the topic
Was it Oklahoma City Nationals where Mike Evans came out with a brand new mummy wrap on his leg? I can't remember anymore for sure. It just seemed like there was a run on knee injuries between Big Tens and Nationals for a few years there with multiple guys.
Are we talking injuries only or are we talking injuries and/or late-career regression? If we're talking about the latter, I posted the following in another thread before this year's NCAAs:
# of Iowa wrestlers to AA during Brands' tenure at the helm:
40
*Technically 39, but I included Tsirtsis because he AA’d for Zalesky and spent 3 years in Brands’ system after that.
# of Iowa wrestlers to wrestle for Brands for longer than two seasons and AA during Brands' tenure at the helm:
34
*Mark Perry, Eric Luedke, Matt Fields, Pat Lugo, Jaydin Eierman, and Real Woods wrestled for 2 seasons or fewer for Brands and therefore were not included in my analysis (although it is notable that Eierman DNP'd as a Senior at Iowa due to injury).
9 of 34 wrestlers had their highest (or joint-highest) NCAA finish as a Senior AND only improved/matched their previous best NCAA finish throughout their careers. These wrestlers are as follows:
Luke Lofthouse
Sammy Brooks
Dan Dennis
Nathan Burak
Tony Ramos
Cory Clark
Austin DeSanto
Max Murin
Nelson Brands (counting last season as his Senior season, as he is ineligible this season)
5 of 34 wrestlers had their highest (or joint-highest) NCAA finish as a Senior, but fell down/off the podium between their initial AA finish and their best (or joint-best) finish Senior year (or stagnated further down the podium in the case of Mike Evans in 6th place). These wrestlers are as follows:
Alex Marinelli (6,7,DNP,5)
Jay Borschel (3,DNP,1)
Mike Evans (6,6,6)
Brent Metcalf (1,2,1)
Montell Marion (2,4,2)
20 of 34 wrestlers did not have their highest finish as a Senior. These wrestlers are as follows:
Sam Stoll
Alex Tsirtsis
Grant Gambrall
Alex Meyer
Joey Slaton
Spencer Lee
Dan Erekson
Ethen Lofthouse
Ryan Morningstar
Michael Kemmerer
Charlie Falck
Bobby Telford
Phil Keddy
Matt McDonough
Brandon Sorenson
Derek St. John
Thomas Gilman
Keleb Young
Jacob Warner
Tony Cassioppi (counting last season as his senior season, as he is ineligible this season)
Key Takeaways:
*21 of 40 Brands AAs did not achieve their best NCAA placement as a Senior.
*20 of 34 Brands AAs who were in the program for more than 2 seasons did not achieve their best NCAA placement as a Senior.
I also posted the following (for a comparison):
23 of 32 (72%) Sanderson AA's who wrestled for Sanderson for more than 2 seasons recorded their best NCAA placement as a Senior (or in their final or most recent season).
14 of 34 (41%) Brands AA's who wrestled for Brands for more than 2 seasons recorded their best NCAA placement as a Senior (or in their final or most recent season).
Have you taken the time to talk to the AD or Tom about this yet?
