Effects of Kneeling
- Thread starter hawkdave007
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Gandhi was radically peaceful, adamant in his goals, and polite to his adversaries. He did not support street violence...on the contrary...used the threat of his death to end such activities. You are confusing peaceful civil disobedience...with burning down a Wendy's and/or killing a 77 year old black police chief...for the mayhem and agitation that is occurring today.
Gandhi would have looked on the protesting/rioting that is occurring here today and been deeply disgusted. Likewise for MLK.
You don’t understand what is meant by defunding the police state. The founders did.
You omit the fear that a military could be used to oppress. That’s the role the police are in today. The people want to free themselves of oppression just like the founding generation. You certainly haven’t learned much from history.
Look at you turning to violence as you seek ground to oppose kneeling. I laugh at you.
Ok Mesa, I can't take this anymore. Your exact words, "Change that lasts needs to come from consensus." Let me ask you something. During the Civil rights movement of the 60's, do you really think the deep South, Alabama, Louisiana, Missiissippi, probably even the majority of Florida, Texas had a consensus that what was being done was right? Blacks attempting to integrate schools, eat in the same restaurants, vote, etc. That is a totally BS statement. It would never have been accomplished without massive protests. And look at the push back, the blacks being hosed down, beaten, lynched even in the 60's just asking for equality. They had to fight, scratch, claw for everything they got, and NOTHING was handed to them. Had to have police escorts just to be able to go to a "white school." And half of you on this board get so butthurt about modern day athletes kneeling? Again, most of you like the current status quo because it is good for YOU. You claimed you were against Racism and police brutality but really don't seem to want any change. Time doesn't standstill.
First of all, that's not what "the people" want as the vast majority oppose full defunding of the police. Second, a sure sign of a "fanatic" is someone who claims to speak "for the people". So to be clear, you don't.
As for the role of the police, others have cited the data from police interactions in this thread...you should read them. There are rare exceptions in which a police officer is a thug/racist and acts unprofessionally...and the vast majority of police officers despise them. But no profession is free of bad people. The freedom to which you refer comes about BECAUSE the police are part of minimizing crime and creating an environment in which we are all free to express ourselves openly. Remove them, and freedom will dissipate because oppression and violence will have no restraint when people are met with speech they dislike.
I've learned a lot from history, but I realize that I have much more to learn. You, on the other hand, are the perfect example of "It ain't what you know that's harmful, its what you think you know that just ain't so." The only thing worse than not knowing our history, is what you do...knowing a bogus version of it and failing even to understand that bit.
People like MLK forged a "national" consensus through peaceful protest...the courage he and others showed changed hearts and mind. This created a growing consensus and outrage over the violation of the civil rights of blacks throughout the country. Yes, there was regional opposition in the South, but using peaceful protest in the face of that moved the nation to make deep and lasting changes. Its not my belief that you can ever win over everyone to a just cause, but I do believe that how you fight for a just cause...peacefully and with an iron will...sways hearts and minds. If you can't change the hearts and minds of "most" Americans you cannot succeed in making lasting change...but as I said...this does not imply that everyone can be won over.
I'm not sure why you're surprised at people being butthurt over kneeling to the flag. Its meant as disrespect, and its received as such. Yes, it is also meant to protest genuine evils and racism...but changing hearts and minds whilst spitting in someone's face, metaphorically, does not work. Yes, they CAN do it...but it does nothing but harden people against their cause. I served, fought, saw horrible things in the name of that flag...which to means stands for a host of existentially positive things like peace, freedom and respect for my fellow citizens. People dishonoring causes me much butthurt, though I acknowledge they have the right.
If I was asked AFTER the anthem to take a knee to show solidarity with those who are fighting for equality...I'm in. But, to spit on something I love and cherish...the things that flag represents to me...is never something I can live with or accept. I realize I'm just one person, but I do not think I'm alone in feeling this way.
You’re another who doesn’t understand what defunding the police state means. You have a habit of constructing false narratives to argue against.
The fear mongering from the "defunding" of the police is just insane. The police have been given free reign in this country forever. You can cite statistics all you want, but without body cams and cameras, we were always forced to take their word for it. The guy resisted, I thought he was going for his gun, etc. And no, it's not always black, it's mostly a poor thing. For years the cops have also internally investigated themselves. Oh, and guess what? 9 out of 10 times they found when they shot somebody it was a "good shoot." That's what we are talking about. Sure there are good cops. Sure there are a fair amount of really bad people out there. There are also a lot of people in the middle of that. All police should have bodycams, and cameras on their cars. They should not be internally investigating themselves every time they shoot somebody. Frigging ridiculous.
Police have not been given "free reign". Yes, there have been abuses...but the overall track record is incredible given the daily dangers these people face. Are reforms needed...damn right....and I agree they should not be "internally" investigating themselves. That's one of many reforms that should be looked at. Ditto for all police having body and vehicle cams. The truth on shootings though, is that in the vast majority of cases the police were right to shoot when they did...in almost every shooting case the person shot was armed and threatening either the police or the public. In some cases, an officer believed a person was armed and was just wrong.
And for the record, nearly every cop I know cares about people and chose to be cop because they want to help people...but they are human. And there are bad cops, but they are damned rare.
But here's the basic premise. The vast majority of cops are good people trying to do the right thing. The vast majority of shootings are justified. And while there is a racial element to shootings of unarmed citizens, that is...as you mentioned...more about income status than any other factor. Where there is poverty, there is crime...and where there is crime, the likelihood of a shooting is increased.
Do you often "feel" that those who disagree with you just don't "understand" your point?
No, that’s simply giving you the benefit of the doubt. I believe most people understand the situation and construct false narratives to gain an advantage, like you have done in this thread.
Your words are the vast majority of cops are good people trying to do the right thing. Again, a lot of people, and minorities and poor people especially don't agree. And yes, I stick to my comment that they have been given "free reign." Who has been policing them? Before Body cams and such, there was zero accountability of police. Zero. An eyewitness in a poor neighborhood against the word of a cop? GTF out of here. Again, not always blaming the cops, as in most cases that is how they are told to police, by both Republican and Democrat regimes. Nobody wants to pretend they are not "tough on crime" if they are running for office. This current system, and I think you agree, needs to be addressed and changed. And it's already happening. That doesn't mean we won't still have police and it's going to spiral out of control. That's fear mongering.
The data says otherwise...more than 6500 cops were arrested for criminal acts over a 7 year span between 2005 and 2012 (most recent data I could find). So clearly, they are being arrested when they screw up...which kinda puts the lie to the "free reign" argument. Further, their have been 10's of thousands of internal discipline actions taken over the past few years...again, people given free reign generally to not face such heavy handed discipline on such a regular basis. Do some get away with bad acts...will, yes...no system is perfect and catches every bad actor.
People may disagree, but they are arguing with the data not with me. The system needs more checks and balances, but I would not agree that it should be "less tough" on crime.
As for "defund the police"....there is no one argument out there for doing this, there are many. They range from having zero police...to simply reducing the numbers of officers. So when I address those who want to defund the police entirely, I'm absolutely NOT fearmongering. That would be insane and would put many citizens in grave danger every single day of their lives. People should fear that kind of change, because its idiotic. Other concepts floating around out there are calling for defunding departments and using some sort of civil mediators to handle certain types of crime...depending what that looked, it may or may not be something that could be effective.
Personally, I believe the police need MORE funding so that they can conduct more intensive training. Less emphasis on firearm usage and more on physical detention methodologies and de-escalation techniques. More needs to be spent on minority recruiting to the police force as well, because a diverse force is inherently going to be a more fair and just force...and be capable of establishing stronger community ties. But our problem is not too much police enforcement, it is poorly applied policing...poor training...poor leadership...and not enough priority on community engagement. None of our "crime" problems are solved by having less police with less funding...so, to me, defunding is a poor idea and will only make poor communities less safe.
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We’re getting closer Mesa. Poorly applied policing is what I consider the “tough on crime thing.” We’re arresting people for way to many minor offenses, especially again poor people. Once you get a strike in our criminal justice system it becomes very hard for you. Minor traffic stops and ticketing for this and that in the poor community where people can’t pay the tickets or even afford to pay to fix the car. I’m not saying being less tough on real crime, I’m saying be less tough on on when you have the judgement to make a difference.
Police reform is something I support. I also don't believe that overly aggressive cops are nearly as rare as some make them out to be. It's a real problem, and cops most often just cover for other cops when needed. It really is time for them to have all their interactions with the public recorded, evaluated, and judged by an outside entity, particularly anytime there is a complaint. There also needs to be consequences for not reporting your brother in blue. Absolutely ridiculous how long that sociopath in Minnesota was on the force. How in the hell could that guy interact every day with all these good cops and not be rooted out of the force? The good cops never noticed he was a Psycho? This repeated failure in the police force needs to be addressed.
Again, no offense Mesa but you keep presenting this “data” and we are supposed to believe it. This data comes from who? Oh, the police who report on it. I’m convinced and I believe it’s been going on forever that they can manipulate reports any way they want. Still believe the police have way way to much power. Just my opinion.
So speeding and parking tickets are the downfall of the poor community? The police are not going to dedicate a lot of time targeting poor communities for minor traffic violations and minor traffic violations are a poor excuse anyway. Laws are laws and are there to be equally followed or not followed by all.
Ok, I’ll bite on this. You don’t think the police target and look for beat up cars, run the plates and pull them over? It happens all the freaking time. Total BS to say otherwise. So let’s try this. I live in Overland Park, but just a few blocks from state line in Missouri and across the street is Prairie Village KS and a block north Leawood. A block West of my house cops lay in wait and pull over Missouri cars constantly. 9 out of 10 of the are minorities. Explain that to me please.
Dumbass. In the greater Orlando area, the vast majority of stop light cameras are in poor neighborhoods. The automated fines can be over $300.
The registered owner is automatically fined. If they don’t or can’t pay the fine, they lose their license, go to jail.
I know what'll make em agree with us. Let's piss em off!!
Seriously, you won't advance the conversation by dividing. Getting more people to understand the message of BLM and choosing to kneel doesn't happen by kneeling, it happens through conversation in other places.
It doesn't have to be during the anthem.
That said, I hope the team decides to act as a team, and they all do the same thing, kneeling or standing.
When I attend, I'll stand.
if you want to protest, fine, do it on your own time. That's how I feel about kneeling.
So because the facts dont align with your narrative you are just going to pass it out of hand? Hmmm thats called confirmatory bias. So why dont you just post some verifiable facts to refute his position?
Dumbass, where I live unmanned speeding camera are run by the city not the police and in your case poor people are just as capable as any to follow traffic laws.
naturalmwa, you have proven your ignorance time and time again. It doesn't appear that anything short of complete capitulation to your point of view is acceptable to you. We all want the country to be better. It takes time and a consensus as to what our biggest problems are. If you think the U.S. is so bad, Cuba, Venezuela, N Korea all seem like a place you would fit right in. But be careful, don't get on the goverment's bad side......
Lol. Check here how covid is "declining" in Texas. Florida and Arizona are even worse.
https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2020/texas-coronavirus-cases-map/
The average age of the positive cases in Florida has dropped nearly in half. From over 60 to 36.
They are mass testing and catching a higher percentage of asymptomatic cases in the low risk population. Nationally hospitalizations and deaths continue to plummet.
We just had the lowest weekly national death total since mid March but feel free to keep spreading the panic porn with anecdotal evidence.
This is a virus that burns through the nursing home population and has little bite in the general healthy population, much like any other upper respiratory virus.
I have an idea. How about all the racist dipsticks in the stadium kneel during the anthem ... and everyone can just spit on ‘em. Or fart in their collective faces.
I have to travel to AZ in a couple weeks. Not thrilled. I’ve been watching. They’ve been heading straight up. The NY Times has a cool interactive map, updated daily.
Don’t normally choose to read the times, but their covid map is really good.
